"Sohbet" is the Arabic word for the Sufi tradition of spiritual discussion and instruction, particularly in the presence of the Murshid or Spiritual Guide. The following questions and answers are from a conversation shared between Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah al- Dayemi and some of his students in November 1994.

STUDENT: I sort of hesitate to ask a question, but since you asked . . . the thought comes to me, how do you let go of fear so you can Love unconditionally? For example, what are the stages for the person who might want to take your suggestions? It seems like "it's all or nothing."

SHEIKH DIN: It is (all or nothing).

STUDENT: I don't know! There are many people out there who really need to make boundaries for Love. It's good for them to do that. That's what I've seen in this society quite a bit. Gradually building up trust. I just haven't seen . . . well, I've seen a few people, but it is a rare person who makes that jump. The average person, it just seems to me, needs to develop some confidence to do like you said, "Do the best you can," and then get some reflection from the Teacher that they are doing a good job. Then you keep going until you're "there," and you don't even realize that you got there. It just seems that all or nothing . . .

SHEIKH DIN: Your question brings up many different issues. However, your statement that one needs to make boundaries for Love is based upon the psychological neurosis that I have spoken of earlier. Boundaries are not about Love! They are about protection, about the defenses that people put up because of past wounds, hurt and pain. However, putting up boundaries is not Love. It is a strategy. There is a tremendous difference between Love and strategy. Boundaries are the strategies for trying to have and to keep a more "comfortable" life, a "smoother" life, a so called "better" life.

STUDENT: I know a lot of people have been traumatized by, let's say, child abuse. To persons who have gone through major trauma, and I think there's more people than we might realize, the "safety zone" is very important. Saying that "It is all or nothing," would frustrate that person because why should they trust? There is nothing to indicate trust, except to trust that it is there! There is a lot of work being done these days with people on developing trust on a gradual basis.

SHEIKH DIN: When I say that "It is all or nothing," it does not mean that there is not a process by which we unfold. For example, a fruit is ripe all or nothing, but a fruit became ripe by going through many stages of ripening to become fully ripe. "Letting go" and "spiritual surrender", as advised by the sages, is on an "all or nothing" basis. Surrender . . . all or nothing. However, the process that we undergo is varied for different people at different times and places. The transformation that takes place from suffering to happiness, joy and enlightenment, is all or nothing.

STUDENT: I have seen so many people at that stage. I just wanted to say to anybody that is going through that, I feel a sense that I've learned something. I want to encourage people to do what you are saying, but it is just that I feel there is a lot of judgment that goes on. People try something, they haven't reached it yet, and there is a lot of frustration in people because they are not perfect.

SHEIKH DIN: Let us simply start with "reaching (being) where we are at."

STUDENT: It seems to me like the chessboard we have, the game board of life, these material things of one kind or another...

SHEIKH DIN: Material and psychic (mental and emotional).

STUDENT: Right! Ideas, conceptions and all that stuff . . . I feel kind of caught. I have been watching the fine tuning of my own life lately, and sometimes I think that I deceive myself into the idea that I am giving, and you know, I am not. I'm not giving! Sometimes I say, "Yeah, this is giving." I am really open and feeling, "Gosh, I'm getting something back that looks like a reward for giving." But I'm wondering, it seems kind of like moving furniture around the house, just like changing the furniture in the living room sometimes.

SHEIKH DIN: Burn your house down!

STUDENT: Yeah? How do you "burn down the house?" And, don't we then just reconstruct another house? I mean, we have all this material stuff everywhere, and it just seems like it's all we know.

SHEIKH DIN: We "burn our house down" by associating and identifying ourselves with something and someone that is greater than us - in other words, the house we have built for ourselves. The mind becomes what it thinks about and associates with. That is its spiritual principle. So, we should associate our minds with the Infinite, with Love, with God/Allah in all forms and with God/Allah's Company of Friends. This is how we do it. Kabir says in a poem, "I have burned my own house down. The torch is in my hand. And now I will burn down the house of anyone who cares to follow me."

STUDENT: Well, I don't totally get it. I mean ...

SHEIKH DIN: You keep trying to figure it out. (smiling)

STUDENT: I mean . . . I'm going to wake up tomorrow, and I still have this job, and I still have these degrees.

SHEIKH DIN: Fine. Now associate your mind and your intentions more and more with the Absolute, with the Divine, with the True Self. Use your mantra (name of God or object of meditation). Perform your meditation and prayer, keep the sangha (spiritual company) of the Community. Spend more time participating in your relationships with Love as the form of God/Allah. Then the other "stuff" will come. The process is not a mental formula that you move around your game board until you "get it," and then you're "there." It is a process. The process is a burning process. It happens as we allow the things that we thought of and experienced as our house to become extinguished.

STUDENT: I can hear that.

SHEIKH DIN: The first step is to realize how caught you are. Boy, that's a great step, rather than being totally lost and not even knowing that you are lost. It is like the story of the Mullah Nasruddin who became really angry at his wife, because she had awakened him from a dream. He argued, "I can't believe you woke me up from my dream! I had just met a man who was ready to give me a big bag of money! I sold him something, and he was actually going to pay me more than it was worth. Why did you wake me!?" Spiritual awakening is like the awakening from the "dream" that we are in. The dream that all of the things in our life could actually satisfy us, and that they are actually a good deal. I am not saying that life is an illusion. I teach that this material world is illusory, not an illusion. However, within it, the Self, Divine Spirit does exist. I do not advocate leaving the world, and you know it. But, I recommend that you recognize the Reality, the true nature of this world, and the difference between the permanent and the changing. Those things that you feel stuck to are not permanent. They are transitory. They are always changing, and so suffering goes with them. As long as we continually have more desires for things that we are not being ultimately fulfilled by, we will suffer.

This is the first truth of the Four Noble Truths of Lord Buddha. "Attachment (desire) is suffering." The Buddha will go on to advise us that if you have infinite desires and you want to be happy, then you must be able to fulfill them infinitely. Fine. Go for it! Or . . . do not have desires. Limit desire by learning to control it. Either way, it is the same. Neither things nor desires are permanent, and they will never provide you with permanent satisfaction.

We need a lot of Remembrance and many reminders, because we get lost and we forget. We go right back into the mode of the world. When you get up tomorrow morning, remember one more time. Take one extra "round of Remembrance" to carry you one extra round in your day, so that you may live your life this day with less suffering. Remember Who everything belongs to, Who is the real doer, Who is the real owner and Who is the real controller. Do not associate or believe that to be yourself (individual personality).

STUDENT: There is a habit I have called judging or having an opinion that society can react to negatively like, "You're attacking me," and sometimes it comes as a result of an opinion I had about what might have been more "spiritual." I might have expressed my opinion that someone should have done something or acted "more spiritually." Then I am in trouble with them because they react. Should I just shut up?

SHEIKH DIN: Let us talk about the difference between opinions and judgments. Opinion is the exercise of our individual preference. Judgment is thinking that our personal opinion is correct as well as it being the only one that's correct. That is the difference between the two. Opinion is the exercise of our preference; judgment is thinking that mine is the only way. We are entitled to our opinions, but judgments separate us. To be whole, healthy and to know one's real boundaries, like our brother was asking before, we have to be in touch with our opinions. We must be able to know how our opinions express themselves in the form of feelings, allow them to take place and know that they are legitimate, regardless of the approval or lack of approval from others. If each person would work on that, we would start to see that we are each responsible for our own experience. We have to take personal responsibility for our feelings and the healthy exercise of those feelings. If we let go of our judgments, we can still have our opinions, and they can function simultaneously within the realm of our feelings and experiences, without dumping those opinions on others in the form of judgments.

STUDENT: Why do we do that?

SHEIKH DIN: Fear.